Following a few sermons...

Submitted by David on Mon, 2006-06-19 02:05

In response to my last post discussing the Psalms, it was suggested that I look at a few sermons on the Psalms preached in January. I finished listening to the files this evening, although it seems that the last one was cut off before the end of the sermon.

To me the sermons reemphasized that there are many things that we can learn from study of the Psalms. Yet that wasn't the point with which I was disagreeing. My question was not whether or not we can benefit from the study of the Psalms, but whether or not we should be actively singing them.

Listening to the first bit of the last sermon in the series, I spent a little bit of time thinking about those congregations and denominations who adhere only to the "authorized version of 1611" (AKA the KJV). Just how much does our theological language change alongside the English and how much does it lag behind? (This argument applies also to such things as clerical dress. I recall reading something in Owen Chadwick's history of the early church regarding the origins of this. Basically, the idea brought forward there was that such dress had been common for people, and then stuck around in the church due to conservatism).

What brought this topic to mind was talk about the word chastisement and how no sermon illustrations could be found about it. (I'm unsure if "chastisement" was the only word searched for, or if other similar words were searched for as well). The word chastisement seems to be a somewhat outdated one. A minute or so later "discipline" was mentioned - which seems to me to be the modern day equivalent (or am I missing some element of chastisement's definition?). A quick google search for "discipline sermon illustration" brought up a large number of results quite quickly.

Comments

Wes Bredenhof

Mon, 2006-06-19 11:19

As to whether or not we should be singing the Psalms, obviously Paul thought so (Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16). Actually, a pretty strong case can be made that "psalms, hymns, and songs," are all referring to different types of inspired Psalms.

Yes, I did search not only for "chastisement" but also for "discipline" and related terms. I think if you look a bit more carefully at the results, most of them have to do with human discipline or church discipline. And sure, I agree that chastisement is a word that's not used much anymore, but neither is propitiation. But in both cases, there is something that doesn't quite get captured in synonyms. Chastisement is not merely discipline, but divine discipline through bodily affliction.

Our theological language sometimes needs to change and especially when there is jargon that we need to get rid of. But there are words like propitiation, sanctification, justification etc. that simply need to be taught to people -- not for the sake of knowing the word, but for the sake of knowing the concept and then having a peg on which to hang the concept -- which aids memory and recall. When I was a missionary working with people with a low-level of literacy and English ability, I would "translate" concepts into simpler language, but then I would also give the technical term as a peg on which to hang the concept. I found this to be an effective way to teach the Christian faith.

David

Mon, 2006-06-19 23:50

As to whether or not we should be singing the Psalms, obviously Paul thought so (Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16). Actually, a pretty strong case can be made that "psalms, hymns, and songs," are all referring to different types of inspired Psalms.

I'm not saving that all of the Psalms are invalid for use, but merely that some might be somewhat outdated. I suppose that the current conversation is largely a rehash of our email conversation of November or December of last year. I recall that you then pointed me at a book called The Sacred Bridge. I didn't get around to reading all of it before departing for Calgary, but the point that was drummed into my head by the author over and over again in the chunk of the book that I read was the evidence was really quite sparse.

Scott

Tue, 2006-06-20 10:57

Those psalms that you say are outdated are part of the Bible. Are you implying that the Bible also is outdated? That would be interesting coming from someone who minored in history.

I was thinking recently about what would fit your definition of a contemporary psalm/hymn. I suspect it would be about God extended his covenant to the gentiles because His chosen people rejected him. I wonder if that would be considered anti-Semitic? Another possible contemporary psalm/hymn could be about the reformation. Ok Dave, start writing; we know you have mad poetry skills.

David

Tue, 2006-06-20 12:09

Those psalms that you say are outdated are part of the Bible. Are you implying that the Bible also is outdated? That would be interesting coming from someone who minored in history.

I was not intending to imply that the Bible is outdated, but merely that some practices are no longer fitting. To give a somewhat different example: there's a lot to be learned from the Old Testament, yet you don't practice animal sacrifices and might even do something as horrible as wear clothing made of a mix of materials (see Deuteronomy 22:11 and the following Jewish spin on it).

Scott

Tue, 2006-06-20 14:29

Ok, so what is the connection between outdated practices and "outdated" psalms?

Outdated practices became outdated for a variety of reasons. In some cases it was because they foreshadowed the coming of Christ, but since He already came there no longer exists a need to practice them. eg) Passover

How did the psalms in question become outdated?

David

Tue, 2006-06-20 14:51

How did the psalms in question become outdated?

See the questions at the bottom of the previous post. To me these suggest that while we can learn from them, they aren't really suited for us to sing.

Scott

Tue, 2006-06-20 19:00

1. Do we use the same instruments the Psalm references?
2. Do you "herald in due season, feastdays of the moon"?
3. Do you still celebrate the passover? (the commemoration of Israel's captivity in Egypt)

1. No we don't use the same instruments, but to be fair certain instruments in use today were not yet invented, and even if they were they're not very portable. I wouldn't say that changing the instrument makes a psalm outdated because technically those instruments are still available. Unless you've got the correct musical arrangement for the original instruments, I don't foresee anybody switching back because music arranged for organ or piano doesn't work well on instruments without keys.

2. The formulae for calculating Good Friday and Easter are based on the moon. We may not herald them in as much as they used to, but we do observe them.

3. The Passover was replaced by the Lord's Supper. There is no need to look forward to something that has already happened, but after it has happened you commemorate it.

David

Tue, 2006-06-20 20:02

I wouldn't say that changing the instrument makes a psalm outdated because technically those instruments are still available.

Well, they might exist, but it seems to me that what is implied is not existance but active usage in worship.

The formulae for calculating Good Friday and Easter are based on the moon. We may not herald them in as much as they used to, but we do observe them.

Interesting. I hadn't quite thought of that. That said, while there is a lunar element involved in the calculation, there's also a solar element involved in the calculation.

The Passover was replaced by the Lord's Supper. There is no need to look forward to something that has already happened, but after it has happened you commemorate it.

There still are some Christian groups out there that celebrate the Passover to some extent. That second sentence of yours sounds somewhat like my argument restated but in different words. Yes you can learn, and yes you can speak about, but such is to be done in a different fashion.

Wes Bredenhof

Tue, 2006-06-20 23:49

Are you familiar with Hughes Oliphant Olds?

David

Wed, 2006-06-21 08:49

Can't say that I'm familiar with him. A quick google search seems to turn up a series on Reformed worship that is made up of quite a few volumes, as well as some other work by him. Anything in particular that you would reccomend for reading?

Wes Bredenhof

Wed, 2006-06-21 10:19

His dissertation is entitled The Patristic Roots of Reformed Worship. It's out of print and it's next to impossible to find a used copy to buy, but you should be able to find it at good university libraries (so I'm told) -- for instance, it is available at Regent. From what I understand, Old traces the development of psalm singing from the early church to the Reformation. And otherwise, Old is simply an author worth recommending on the subject of worship, especially its history.

David

Wed, 2006-06-21 10:43

It's out of print and it's next to impossible to find a used copy to buy,

Ah, yes. Another reason that the ever-expanding length of coypright terms becomes a nuisance. I suppose that in some cases - such as perhaps dissertations - copyright on your work isn't necessarily something that you can control though.

but you should be able to find it at good university libraries (so I'm told)

It seems that according to WorldCat the University of Saskatchewan and University of Manitoba have copies, so an interlibrary loan shouldn't be a problem. I'm not sure how long the book will take to arrive, but hopefully it shouldn't be too long.

Wes Bredenhof

Wed, 2006-06-21 16:05

When you get it, you'll especially want to have a look at chapter 4, pp.258-263 (at least these are the pages in the edition I have in front of me). But the whole book appears to be worth reading:

Chapter 1 -- The History of Reformed Worship, 1500-1542
Chapter 2 --The Patristic Knowledge of the Reformers
Chapter 3 --The Proclamation of the Word
Chapter 4 -- The Prayers
Chapter 5 -- The Lord's Supper

from the dust cover: "...Finally, we analyze each element of Reformed worship to show its development and to indicate its Scriptural and particularly its patristic roots...How the Reformers understood their use of the lectionary, the sermon, psalmody and hymnody is presented in the light of their understanding of the practice of the ancient Church."